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So, I've stained the body and neck and I'm in the process of applying several (3 or 4) coats of epoxy to them for pore filling. I watched Michaels video on the subject. My question is:
When sanding the epoxy I beleive I should stay above the wood (stay in the epoxy) since it is stained, right???
When doing this same process on a body and neck that is not stained, I could sand back to the wood without consequence if I'm consistent about it, right???
Advice and direction from those of you in the know is greatly appreciated.
I pore fill with epoxy on bare wood and don’t use a sealer coat first. I don’t think using a sealer coat under the epoxy would yield any benefit or better results.
Thanks
Michael
PPrivate member
Testing your process off the guitar is always a good practice that saves both time and material- you can test multiple processes and materials at the same time. Sounds like you're about to get it dialed in.
PPrivate member
Thanks Karl. Planning to test some things soon.
Regards,
PPrivate member
Hi Gerry:
Since you are starting over I would ask yourself if you really need to apply the stain to bare wood. It certainly can be done but more commonly the color is applied after the guitar is pore filled and sealed.
So a typical schedule wood be:
1. Apply 1-2 sealer coats ( in your case Vinyl sealer) and when dry scuff.
2. porefill with the filler you have listed, as many coats as needed. Then light sand/scuff
3. Apply 1-2 more sealer coats and light sanding when dry.
4. Spray on your color in a heavily thinned coat of nitro (1:1 nitro:thinner, some thin it out more).
5. Don't like the color then you can wipe of sand it off, as it is a very thin coat, and try again.
6. If the color is good then start spraying your top coats of nitro as you have listed. - 3 sessions with 3-5 coats in a session, and sanding back bewteen sessions. If you can let it dry more than overnight the sanding will go better. 320 or 400 after first session and the 600.
7. let cure for 2 weeks to be safe but depending on drying conditions can be less.
8. Final rubout starting at 1200
If you want to put the stain on bare wood then after staining I wood apply a few coats of sealer, then pore fill as above and continue on.
Hope this helps.
PPrivate member
Thanks Michael,
This is very helpful. I find it inetersting that we can apply stain over sealer and not to the wood itself.
Thanks agian for your time. I'll pick a path and see how it comes out. 🙂
Regards,
Gerry
PPrivate member
Hi Michael,
I don't mean to hijack the thread, but one question for you. If you are using epoxy for pore filling (silver tip or zpoxy), do you first apply a sealer? If so, what sealer do you recommend? I usually apply the epoxy pore filler to bare wood and wonder if a sealer coat (shellac or something else) would improve my results.
Thanks so much,
James
PPrivate member
Hi Gerry: Good question. You are correct that when sanding and leveling the epoxy pore filler you cannot sand through it as you will remove the color underneath. I think this is going to be tricky to do as the pore filler is very thin coat on top and its pretty easy to sand through it. So I would apply the first few coats of pre filler heavier and careful with your level lightly and only on the last coat and level be more agressive. In general I put the color on top of the pore filler and but under most of the clear finish to seal it in.
You might also consider not using epoxy pore filler that you need the level and sand, but instead use oil paste pore filler or Goodfilla water based pore filler from stew mac. With these you can apply ontop of you stain and sealer coat and they don't require and sanding if applied correctly and there is no danger of sanding into the stain.
And, your last question, If there is no stain on the wood you can use epoxy and when you are leveling sand back to the surface of the wood without issue. Although for me I leave a thin coat on the wood surface which aslo acts as a final sealer coat.
Good luck with it and let me know if you have any other questions.
PPrivate member
Thanks Michael. I'll have to continue down the road with doing a very careful sanding of the pore filler becasue I've passed the point of no return; the epoxy is on! I did a little sanding on a high spot yesterday and it is really easy to get through the epoxy. I did a little touch up with stain on top of the epoxy and then applied another coat of epoxy. I see what that looks like later today.
If all else fails, I figure I can sand back to bare wood and try another approach, probably one that you suggested.
Regards,
PPrivate member
Michael,
Well, as you probably suspected, I sanded through the epoxy in just a few seconds. It needed leveling and it is so thin that I was through into the color imediately. So, I have sanded (220 grit) the entire back, sides, and neck back to raw wood removing all of the stain and the pore filler. Although, I think some of the pore fill is still down in pores, at least I think it should be. The wood surface is incredibly smooth and it looks like the stain has been captured and sealed down into the pores.
At this point I will start the process over. I want to stain agian but I need to understand the order of operations. I have purchased the following products from Cardinal: Nitro Clear Lacquer (2079-CLE17937), Lacquer Thinner (1200-08), Gloss Clear Vinyl Nitro Sealer (2059-CLE18773), and Medium W/B Cosolvent (SB-09). I have Colortone water based stain (tabacco brown, red mahagony) , ColorTone water based Grain Filler (Ebony). I do have the System 3 epoxy but think I'll stay away from that this go round and wait until I do the Rosewood kit I have that I will not be staining.
So I think the order of operation should be:
1. Stain bare wood to desired tone (last time it was three coats, 65 brown/50 red mahagony drops per 2 oz of H2O).
2. Apply 1 coat (maybe 2 coats) of Nitro Sealer.
3. Scuff sealer and check to see if pores are really still filled. Hopefully I'll be able to tell.
4. If pore fill is needed, use a pore fill that does not need sanding (ColorTone WB Ebony or Clear???) and apply it over the sealer wiping it off with vigor as it begins to dry.
5. Apply another coat of Nitro Sealer and scuff sand.
6. Start the Nitro Lacquer build-up: 4 coats per day with +/- 1 hour between coats for flash time.
7. Build up 12-16 coats of Nitro Lacquer over 3-4 days with a light scuff sand in between each of the 4 coats ( apply 4 coats, set overnight, sand and apply next 4 coats).
8. Allow at least 2 weeks for the nitro to off gas the solvents.
9. Finish sand starting with 1000 grit and then work in steps up to 6000 grit.
10. Buff to a high gloss and finish guitar assembly (neck and bridge glue up, etc.)
I realize I'm asking for some trade secrets, and the information you provided before is part of what I have based the my planned order of operations on. Any insight you could provide is greatly appreciated.
Regards,
Gerry
PPrivate member
↪ Private memberSo Gerry, how did it work out?
I'm pondering the same issues now, but, I have to go in a different direction. I will be using a water-based finish (Target Coatings EM6000), so likely an oil-based filler will not work well. Jeff Jewitt mentioned PTec 8400 as an alternative pore filler, and I may check that material out (it's a urethane filler). Of course, the simplest solution is the StewMac water based pore filler, but there will be shrinkage.
As you may have guessed, I am looking at a tinted pore filler for the neck. And do I want to use the same tinted pore filler on the body?
Lordy - decisions, decisions. No wonder some nameless Gibson employee invented Sunbursts and ebony finished guitars!