With a break like this with plenty of surface area, I would just glue it without any additional supports. My glue of choice is hot hide glue, but there will be lots of opinions on that and many option…
I think that's a good move. One thing I might do to kick things of is to hit the area with some ultra thin master glue so it wicks under the area and prevents more chipping from potentially delaminate…
Hi guys, I finally managed to sort the problem out. Seens like was a simple issue that I cant see in that moment. I took the whole bridge apart and did a complete setup from scratch. I read somewhere…
This is precisely why Leo Fender developed the insideless guitar. A compromised neck block is super hard to come back from and when I see something like this, it leads me to believe that it's the tip…
Chris, can I add this for the council of elders show ? Also, we are going to have @member on pretty soon to talk about a job about this dramastic. Here's a link to the live show co…
I'm reading the Design book of the Gilet/Gore set (2nd Edition) and ran across something that surprised me. Under "Top bracing layout - guidelines" (Section 4.4.8, pp 4-52) Gore writes, "Brace ends that are housed into the linings stiffen the edge of the soundbard considerably and so constrain its mobility. Unless you are chasing a particular effect, it is generally not very beneficial to house the lower bout braces into the linings."
My interest here is steel strings, and while the practice may be different for nylon string guitars (I wouldn't know) Gore wasn't talking about classical guitars in this section, as far as I can tell. He refers to both types of guitar in this section, and if he's talking about one type or the other he says so.
Gore's statement makes intuitive sense to me. But then why is the practice of tucking braces (at least the lower X braces) through the linings & sides (to be covered up by the bindings) so, so common?
I’m also reading Gore’s book right now and decided to feather the lower x braces to zero but i kept the outer bits of those braces so i would have the registration points for attaching the top. it’s my first solo OM build - I made my first OM at one of Eric Schaefers in house workshops in 2022, it was an excellent workshop.
I think aside from structural considerations it also depends how and the context in which the guitar will be played. I find most modern builders are building mostly for fingerstyle and contemporary acoustic soloists. So like flat-backed necks and highly responsive tops. If that's what you're building for then leaving brace ends un-tucked is probably the way to go.
But guitars built like that sound terrible if you dig in when you strum them, no matter how nice they are. The sound breaks up and they jangle like crazy. The overtones (which sound lovely when played eloquently) interrupt each other and cause all kinds of upper harmonic distortion. The individuation of the fundamental that the fingerstylist is looking for sounds like 6 people all yelling at the same time rather than a single unified polyphonic voice.
It depends on your ear of course, but IMO tucked x-braces will sound best in stuff like trad, bluegrass, country, rock, blues, folk, basically any accompaniment, or just if the player wants to jam with other instruments. Untucked ends are best for solo players.
So it all depends who you're building for. Based on the pros I know and have worked with, and what I've heard from folks coming for repairs, I'd guess 8 in 10 players want something more robust than the Gore/Gilet style. Up to half of those like something quite muted by modern boutique standards, more like a vintage sound.
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That makes a lot of sense -- thanks. And yeah, I build for fingerstyle -- especially with OMs -- so that may be more of what I want. I'm building just for myself right now, so I only need to please myself. I'm thinking of trying it with my next two guitars (one done each way, with the other factors mostly unchanged) to better understand it.
Plus I have to assume it's possible to do a little surgery after the fact to replace that missing extra bit of support.
↪ Private memberYeah doing one of each is a great idea. You'll get a solid impression of how it affects things and what you like
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There's also the method of running the braces out to the ends but tapering them to almost zero and kinda mashing them under the linings. That might help keep them from popping up without significantly stiffening the perimeter.
Lately I think I'm going to just epoxy my braces on, regardless. I can't see a gigantic reason not to. Trevor does with his falcate braces I believe, GR Bear does as well.
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I communicated with Trevor, and he said the difference (notched/slotted-in versus tapered to zero at the edge) does show up in monopole mobility testing.
I've always notched the X braces, and like how they ensure the correct position of the top (and back) when glued on. I may continue to notch for that reason, but then taper to zero once the top has been glued on.
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Hanging all replies here --
* Chad, that makes a lot of sense that it came from Martin. How many builders are influenced by Martin, vs. how many were influenced by Trevor Gore? (Especially when it's one comment buried in one of a big two-book set.)
* Michael, thanks for communicating with Trevor! (I have one other direct connection to Trevor, but I didn't think about asking that person to ask him.) And yeah, I would expect there would be empirical results visible in the monopole mobility (and possibly SPL), along with intangible results perceived in the sound quality. I've always had pretty high monopole mobility, so I wonder what building extra mobility into the top would actually bring me.
* Chad -- I hear what you're saying regarding braces potentially coming loose. Just as with any other risk analysis, it's always risk vs. benefit. What benefit do I actually receive from doing this, and what risks exist for problems down the line? Weigh the two against each other, and see where the scales fall.
I'm wondering if there's a solution where you notch the linings and the sides with a deeper notch for the braces, but be very careful to glue only the ends. This would leave some space for the top to vibrate more, while still tucking the braces into the notches to ensure correct alignment as Karl & Michael said. (Doing this may be functionally equivalent to feathering them to zero after gluing -- I'd have to think that through.
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↪ Private memberAlso, I build instruments in pairs, so I could also try doing this with one and not the other, while keeping the builds pretty consistent otherwise....
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I just finished a dreadnaught with the lower X braces feathered to zero and it has a very distinct and pleasing voice. I can't speak from any real engineering or scientific perspective about it- but it feels and "sounds" very different. It's only the 4th guitar I have built (all dreads) and its Black Walnut back and sides, so I can't speak for what element had what effect, but I love its voice, tone and resonance. I'm building an OM and will do the same thing- feather the X braces to zero. It definitely didn't have a negative effect (more resonance, cleaner bottom end). I measure my resonance modes with FFT but I could not see an appreciable difference in the FFT plot of #4 vs the previous three.
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I had wondered this myself, whether it was worth the effort to perfectly notch the linings to make this work. Because frankly, the logic doesn't really hold up...if the brace were to come unglued, wouldn't it potentially be rattling inside, even if it were pinned down? 🤔
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My guess is that tucking the braces is common practice because that is what Martin does. Much of what is done stems from looking at quality instruments and emulating techniques that were present in those instruments. Tucking the braces may also prevent the brace ends from popping loose. Not a bad thing in terms of instrument longevity. However, Gilet and Gore are presenting their ideas in an attempt to make the instrument more responsive, or at least give the builder more control over the sonic end result. After all, just because something is historically done a certain way, doesn't mean that it is the "right" way, whatever that means. Options on a menu.